Comparing D&D 5e to Pathfinder 2nd Edition

 This is one of several reviews I am doing this year of various table top roll playing games. I am specifically comparing them to D&D 5e. I am doing this with the assumption that my readers are already familiar with D&D 5e. The following review is based only upon my reading of the rulebook. I haven’t played this yet, but I will be posting my opinion after I get a chance to play test it.

It has been pointed out to me that I didn’t give Pathfinder Second Edition a fair review in my post on March 8, 2023.  Looking back, I must agree that I was a little harsh. This is my attempt to rectify that. I will be basing this review on the Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rulebook.

I am referring here to the fifth edition of Dungeons and Dragons as 5E and to Pathfinder Second Edition as PF2. This information is for evaluation purposes, it should not be considered official rules of the game. You can assume things that I don’t list here are basically like 5E with only minor differences.

In PF2 the Dungeon Master is called the Game Master.

Summary of the game system

Dungeons & Dragons has the largest market share in table top role playing games by far. Pathfinder is D&D’s closest competitor. In 2008 Wizards of the Coast published the 4th edition of D&D. Many (including myself) didn’t like care for the new version. Paizo Publishing came to the rescue in 2009 by publishing Pathfinder. This was basically a revised D&D 3.5 rule set with changes that proved popular with many fans. They published the Second Edition in 2019 which further improved the game’s reputation.

Primary differences between PF2 and 5E

Character Creation (the 10 steps as per the Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rulebook)

• Step 1: Create a Concept
• Step 2: Start Building Ability Scores: (The 6 abilities are the same as 5E)
  • Each ability score starts at 10.
• Step 3: Select an Ancestry (Race in 5E):
  • Select from: Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Human
  • Assign any free ability boosts and decide if you are taking any voluntary flaws.
  • Select a Heritage (Subrace in 5E)
    • Each Ancestry has 5 Heritages to pick from.
    • Half-Elf and Half-Orc are human Heritages.
  • Choose an Ancestry Feat.
    • You gain one ancestry feat at first level and another one at levels 5, 9, and 13.
    • The feats that you can select from varies with your Ancestry.
• Step 4: Pick a Background
  • Choose one from these backgrounds: Acolyte, Acrobat, Animal Whisperer, Artisan, Artist, Barkeep, Barrister, Bounty Hunter, Charlatan, Criminal, Detective, Emissary, Entertainer, Farmhand, Field Medic, Fortune Teller, Gambler, Gladiator, Guard, Herbalist, Hermit, Hunter, Laborer, Martial Disciple, Merchant, Miner, Noble, Nomad, Prisoner, Sailor, Scholar, Scout, Street Urchin, Tinker, Warrior
  • Your background gives you two ability boosts.
  • And training in two skills.
  • And a skill feat.
    • NOTES Regarding Skills and Proficiency Bonus
      • Skill checks are like in 5E, but your Proficiency Bonus is not a static number that increases with your character’s level.
      • Your Proficiency Bonus in any skill is broken into five different ranks depending on  the level of expertise you have in the use of that particular skill: Untrained +0, Trained +2, Expert +4, Master +6, Legendary +8.
      • The skills are: Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Crafting, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Lore, Medicine, Nature, Occultism, Performance, Religion, Society, Stealth, Survival, and Thievery.
• Step 5: Choose a Class
  • Select from Alchemist (somewhat like the Artificer in 5E), Barbarian, Bard, Champion (Paladin in 5E), Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, or Wizard. (No Warlock class in the PF2 core rulebook.)
  • Feats
    • Class Feats are abilities granted to you by your class.
      • Class feats are special feats that only members of that class can access.
      • You receive one at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20.
    • Skill Feats are tied directly to your skills.
      • Your character must be trained in the corresponding skill to take a skill feat.
      • You receive one at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20
    • General Feats improve your statistics or give you new actions.
      • You select any general feat (including skill feats) if your character qualifies for it.
      • You receive one at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19
    • Bonus Feats could be any of the above feat types
      • Certain features of your class may grant these.
    • NOTES Regarding Feats
      • PF2 has 17 General Non-Skill Feats, 9 General Skill Feats, and 91 Skill Feats.
      • The feats have a level and often have one or more prerequisites. As an example:
        • Titan Wrestler is a level 1 “General Skill” Feat with the prerequisite of being trained in Athletics. It reads, “You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.”
      • By contrast, Feats in 5E is an optional rule. 5E has 42 feats, some that have a prerequisite. In 5E, at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19 (Also at levels 6 and 14 for Fighters) you can increase 1 ability score by 2, or 2 scores by 1, or take a feat.
  • Skill increases
    • At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, most classes grant a skill increase, though rogues gain them earlier and more often.
    • You can use a skill increase to either become trained in a skill or become an expert in one in which you’re already trained.
  • Ability Boosts
    • At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, your character boosts four different ability scores.
    • Boosting an ability score increases it by 1 if it’s already 18 or above, or by 2 if it starts out below 18.
• Step 6: Determine Ability Scores
  • Your Ancestry, Background, and Class will each increase a score by 2, and may decrease a score by 2.
  • Apply 2 more points to 4 abilities of your choice.
  • You should have no ability score lower than 8 or higher than 18.
  • Determine your ability modifiers (same as 5E)
• Step 7: Record Class Details
  • Record all the benefits and class features that you get from your class.
• Step 8: Buy Equipment
  • At 1st level, your character has 15 gold pieces to spend on armor, weapons, and other basic equipment. All equipment has the following properties.
    • Item Level: Each item has an item level. Characters can use items of any level but GMs are cautioned against allowing items that are far above the PCs current level.
    • Bulk: Items can have a number to indicate their Bulk value. For instance, full plate armor is 4 Bulk, a longsword is 1 Bulk.
    • Hands: This lists how many hands it takes to use the item effectively.
    • HP: The number of hit points it can lose before being destroyed.
    • Hardness value: Reduce any damage a item takes by its Hardness before applying the rest of the damage to reduce its Hit Points.
  • Armor
    • Light Armor is: Padded armor, Leather, Studded leather, Chain shirt
    • Medium Armor is: Hide, Scale mail, Chain mail, Breastplate
    • Heavy Armor is: Splint mail (level 1), Half plate (level 1), Full plate (level 2)
    • Each type of armor is listed with the following.
      • Price:  (similar to 5E)
      • AC Bonus: added to your Armor Class
      • Dex Cap: the max. amount of your DEX modifier that can apply to your AC.
      • Check Penalty: penalty to STR and DEX based skill checks, except for those that have the attack trait.
      • Speed Penalty: penalty to your Speed, to a minimum Speed of 5 feet.
      • Strength:  If your Strength is equal to or greater than this, you don’t take the armor’s Check Penalty, and you decrease the Speed Penalty by 5 feet.
      • Bulk: A suit of armor that’s carried or worn has 1 more Bulk than what’s listed. An armor’s Bulk is increased or decreased if it’s sized for creatures that aren’t Small or Medium in size.
      • Group:  Some abilities reference armor groups.
      • Armor Traits: Armor can have the following traits.
        • Bulwark: add +3 instead of your DEX modifier to Reflex saves.
        • Comfort: can rest normally while wearing it.
        • Flexible: no penalty to Acrobatics or Athletics checks.
        • Noisy: likely to alert others to your presence.
  • Shields
    • PF2 has 4 shield types: Buckler, Wooden shield, Steel shield, and Tower shield
    • Each type of shield is listed with the following.
      • Price:  (as in 5E)
      • HP (BT): the shields Hit Points and Broken Threshold. These measure how much damage the shield can take before it’s destroyed and how much it can take before being broken and unusable (its BT).
        • Attacks that damage you don’t normally damage your armor unless you use the “Shield Block” reaction.
        • Shield Block [reaction]: (Trigger: While you have your shield raised, you take damage from a physical attack.) You place your shield to ward off a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness. You and the shield each take any remaining damage, possibly breaking or destroying the shield.
      • Hardness: Whenever a shield takes damage, the amount of damage it takes is reduced by this amount. This number is particularly relevant for shields because of the Shield Block feat.
  • Weapons
    • Simple Melee Weapons: Club, Dagger, Gauntlet, Light mace, Longspear, Mace, Morningstar, Sickle, Spear, Spiked gauntlet, Staff
    • Uncommon Simple Melee Weapons: Clan dagger, Katar
    • Martial Melee Weapons: Bastard sword, Battle axe, Bo staff, Falchion, Flail, Glaive, Greataxe, Greatclub, Greatpick, Greatsword, Guisarme, Halberd, Hatchet, Lance, Light hammer, Light pick, Longsword, Main-gauche, Maul, Pick, Ranseur, Rapier, Sap, Scimitar, Scythe, Shield spikes, Shortsword, Starknife, Trident, War flail, Warhammer, Whip
    • Uncommon Martial Melee Weapons: Dogslicer, Elven curve blade, Filcher’s fork, Gnome hooked hammer, Horsechopper, Kama, Katana, Kukri, Nunchaku, Orc knuckle dagger, Sai, Spiked chain, Temple sword
    • Uncommon Advanced Melee Weapons: Dwarven waraxe, Gnome flickmace, Orc necksplitter, Sawtooth saber
    • Simple Ranged Weapons: Blowgun, Crossbow, Dart, Hand crossbow, Heavy crossbow, Javelin, Sling
    • Martial Ranged Weapons: Alchemical bomb, Composite longbow, Composite shortbow, Longbow, Shortbow
    • Uncommon Martial Ranged Weapons: Halfling sling staff, Shuriken
    • Weapon Statistics
      • Range: A single number of feet (short range in 5E). Attacks beyond this take a –2 penalty for each additional multiple of that increment up to a maximum penalty of -12.
      • Reload: how many actions it takes to reload the weapon.
      • Bulk: A weapon’s Bulk is increased or decreased if it’s sized for creatures that aren’t Small or Medium size.
      • Hands: the number of hands required to wield. Some one-handed weapons deal a different size of weapon damage die when used in two hands. Some abilities require you to wield a weapon in two hands.
      • Group: affects some abilities and what the weapon does on a critical hit if you have access to that weapon’s critical specialization effects.
      • Weapon Traits: Most weapons have one or more of the following traits: Agile, Attached, Backstabber, Backswing, Deadly, Disarm, Dwarf, Elf, Fatal, Finesse, Forceful, Free-Hand, Gnome, Goblin, Grapple, Halfling, Jousting, Monk, Nonlethal, Orc, Parry, Propulsive, Reach, Shove, Sweep, Thrown, Trip, Twin, Two-Hand, Unarmed, Versatile, Volley.
• Step 9: Calculate Modifiers
  • Perception: This is equal to your proficiency bonus in Perception plus your WIS modifier.
  • Saving Throws: PF2 uses Fortitude, Reflex and Will saving throws.
    • Fortitude saving throw bonus = Fortitude proficiency bonus + CON modifier + any bonuses or penalties from abilities, feats, or items.
    • Reflex saving throw bonus = Reflex proficiency bonus + DEX modifier + any bonuses or penalties from abilities, feats, or items.
    • Will saving throw bonus = Will proficiency bonus + WIS modifier + any bonuses or penalties from abilities, feats, or items.
  • Melee Strikes and Ranged Strikes: Calculate the modifier to Strike with each of your weapons weapon and how much damage that Strike deals.
    • Strike bonus = proficiency bonus with the weapon + (STR mod for melee or DEX mod for ranged weapons) + any item bonus from the weapon and any other permanent bonuses or penalties.
    • Melee weapon damage = Weapons damage + STR mod
    • Ranged weapon damage = Weapons damage + some or all of your STR mod, depending on the weapon’s traits.
  • Skills: Modifier for each skill = ability mod for that skill + your proficiency bonus for that skill + any other applicable bonuses and penalties.
• Step 10: Finishing Details
  • Alignment: Select your  character’s  alignment (same as 5E)
  • Deity: Select the deity your character worships,  if  any.
  • Age: Decide your character’s age.
  • Gender and Pronouns: Record your character’s gender and pronouns.
  • Class DC: A class DC sets the difficulty for certain abilities granted by your character’s class.
    • Class DC = 10 + proficiency bonus for your class + the class’s key ability score modifier
  • Hero Points: Your character usually begins each game session with 1 Hero Point, and your GM can give you additional Hero Points during sessions. Your character can use Hero Points to gain certain benefits, such as staving off death or rerolling a d20. (Similar to Inspiration in 5E)
  • Armor Class: AC = 10 + DEX mod + proficiency bonus with your armor + your armor’s bonus to AC + any other permanent bonuses and penalties.
  • Bulk: Bulk = sum bulk of all of your items. (10 light items make up 1 Bulk)
    • If you’re carrying a total amount of Bulk that exceeds 5 plus your STR mod, you are encumbered. You can’t carry a total amount of Bulk that exceeds 10 plus your STR modifier.

Spells

• Spells in PF2 are handled very much the same as in 5E. There are cantrips, spell focus, spell lists, spell slots, spell attacks, spell saving throws, etc.
  • Spell Lists: There are Arcane, Divine, Occult, and Primal spell lists. (Different than in 5E.)
  • Ritual Spells: Rituals do not require spell slots to cast.

Conditions

• Here is a list of the 42 conditions in PF2:
  • Blinded, Broken, Clumsy, Concealed, Confused, Controlled, Dazzled, Deafened, Doomed, Drained, Dying, Encumbered, Enfeebled, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Fleeing, Friendly, Frightened, Grabbed, Helpful, Hidden, Hostile, Immobilized, Indifferent, Invisible, Observed, Paralyzed, Persistent Damage, Petrified, Prone, Quickened, Restrained, Sickened, Slowed, Stunned, Stupefied, Unconscious, Undetected, Unfriendly, Unnoticed, and Wounded
  • 5E has 14 In addition to the 11 highlighted above, 5E also has Charmed, Incapacitated, and Poisoned.
  • Here an example of how they are defined.
    • Prone (5E definition): “A prone creature’s only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition. The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls. An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.”
    • Prone (PF2 definition): “You’re lying on the ground. You are flat-footed and take a -2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls. The only move actions you can use while you’re prone are Crawl and Stand. Standing up ends the prone condition. You can Take Cover while prone to hunker down and gain cover against ranged attacks, even if you don’t have an object to get behind, gaining a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against ranged attacks (but you remain flat-footed). If you would be knocked prone while you’re Climbing or Flying, you fall (see pages 463–464 for the rules on falling). You can’t be knocked prone when Swimming.”

Encounter Mode (Combat in 5E)

• Initiative
  • Roll a Perception check to determine your initiative. Or a Stealth or Deception or Diplomacy check depending on the situation.
• Your Turn
  • In PF2 your turn is divided into three steps, each step takes an action.
  • Everything you can do is either a free action, a reaction, or it takes one, two, or three actions to perform.
  • Movement is an action, like Crawl, Leap, Step or Stride. Unlike 5E, you cannot interrupt a move action to do something else, but you can take multiple (a maximum of three) move actions on your turn.
  • You have to complete one action or activity before beginning another.
  • If you begin a 2-action or 3-action activity on your turn, you must be able to complete it on your turn.
  • Multiple Attacks: Most attacks take 1 action, so there is nothing preventing you from making up to three attacks a round. However, you get a penalty to your attack roll of -5 on the second attack and -10 on the third.
• Actions
  • Every action is defined as being a free action, a reaction, or taking 1, 2, or 3 actions.
  • Most actions have a type, such as move, attack, concentrate, or manipulate.
  • Some actions have requirements.
  • Reactions must have a trigger.
  • Critical Success/Failure
    • In 5E, when making an attack, rolling a natural 20 always hits and you roll double the damage dice. Rolling a natural 1 is always a miss.
    • In PF2, when making an attack, rolling a natural 20, or rolling 10 over your opponents AC, hits and does double damage. Rolling a natural 1 is always a miss.
  • Basic Actions
    • Aid [reaction] (Help in 5E)
    • Crawl [1 action] You crawl 5 ft.
    • Delay [reaction] Change your initiative to a later position in the initiative order.
    • Drop Prone [1 action]
    • Escape [1 action] Attempt to escape from being grabbed, immobilized, or restrained.
    • Interact [1 action] Manipulate an object or the terrain.
    • Leap [1 action] You can Leap horizontally 10 feet if your Speed is at least 15 feet, or 15 feet if your Speed is at least 30 feet.
    • Ready [2 actions] (like the ready action in 5E)
    • Release [free action] Let go of something.
    • Seek [1 action] Look for something
    • Sense Motive [1 action]
    • Stand [1 action]
    • Step [1 action] Move 5 feet, if your speed is at least 10 feet.
    • Stride [1 action] Move up to your speed
    • Strike [1 action] Attack
    • Take Cover [1 action]
  • Spell Actions
    • Cast a spell: Cast a 1 action, 2 action, 3 action, reaction, or free action spell.
    • Sustain a Spell [1 action] A sustained spell continues until the end of your next turn.
    • Dismiss a Spell [1 action] End one spell effect or magic item effect.
  • Magic Item Actions
    • Activate an Item [1 action] Call forth the effect of an item by properly activating it.
    • Sustain an Activation [1 action] A magic item effect continues until the end of your next turn.
    • Dismiss an Activation [1 action] End one spell effect or magic item effect.
  • Specialty Basic Actions
    • Arrest A Fall [reaction] Attempt an Acrobatics check to slow your fall.
    • Avert Gaze [1 action]
    • Burrow [1 action] Move up to your burrow Speed.
    • Fly [1 action] Move up to your fly Speed.
    • Grab An Edge [reaction] Try to grab the edge when you fall.
    • Mount [1 action] Move onto a creature and ride it.
    • Point Out [1 action] Indicate a creature that you can see to one or more allies.
    • Raise A Shield [1 action] You position your shield to protect yourself.
• Attack of Opportunity [reaction] (basically the same as in 5E)
  • Attack of Opportunity is a specific skill, and not everyone has it.
• Movement in Encounters
  • Basically the same as in 5E with a few exceptions.
  • Flanking:
    • A creature has –2 to their AC to creatures that are flanking it. (PF2 calls that “flat footed”.)
    • To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposite sides or corners of the creature.
  • Cover: there are 3 types of cover:
    • Lesser cover gives you +1 to AC and you can’t hide.
    • Standard cover gives you +2 to AC, Reflex saves, and Stealth checks, and you can attempt to hide.
    • Greater cover gives you +4 to AC, Reflex saves, and Stealth checks, and you can attempt to hide.
• Special Battles: PF2 has additional rules for Mounted Combat, Aerial Combat, and Aquatic Combat
• Death and Dying
  • When you reach 0 Hit Points:
    • Your initiative position moves to directly before the creature or effect that reduced you to 0 HP.
    • You gain the Dying 1 Condition (see below).
    • If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the Dying 2 Condition
    • If you have the Wounded Condition (see below), increase your dying value by an amount equal to your wounded value.
    • If the damage was dealt by a nonlethal attack or nonlethal effect, you don’t gain the dying condition; you are instead unconscious with 0 Hit Points.
  • The Dying Conditions:
    • Dying 1: You are unconscious and must make a recovery check each round.
    • Dying 2: You are unconscious and must make a recovery check each round.
    • Dying 3: You are unconscious and must make a recovery check each round.
    • Dying 4: You are dead (unless you have the Diehard feet)
    • Dying 5: Even if you have the Diehard feet, you are dead
    • Your dying condition increases by 1 (or by 2 if from a critical hit) if you take damage while dying.
    • You lose the dying condition automatically and wake up if you ever have 1 Hit Point or more.
    • When the dying condition ends, you gain the Wounded 1 Condition (see below), or increase your Wounded Condition value by 1 if you already have that condition.
  • Recovery Check:
    • When you’re dying, at the start of each of your turns, you must attempt a flat check with a DC equal to 10 + your current dying value
    • The effects of this check are as follows.
    • Critical Success: Your dying value is reduced by 2.
    • Success: Your dying value is reduced by 1.
    • Failure: Your dying value increases by 1.
    • Critical Failure: Your dying value increases by 2.
  • The Wounded Conditions:
    • Wounded 1: When you drop to 0HP you get the Dying 2 Condition
    • Wounded 2: When you drop to 0HP you get the Dying 3 Condition
    • Wounded 3: When you drop to 0HP you get the Dying 4 Condition (and die unless you have the Diehard feet)
    • Wounded 4: When you drop to 0HP you get the Dying 5 Condition (and die even if you have the Diehard feet)
    • You may gain the Wounded 1 Condition when you have been seriously injured in a fight, or increase your Wounded Condition value by 1 if you already have that condition.
    • The wounded condition ends if someone successfully restores Hit Points to you with Treat Wounds, or if you are restored to full Hit Points and rest for 10 minutes.

Other information in the Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rulebook: There are chapters on Exploration, Downtime, Game Mastering, and Crafting & Treasure.

What you need to get started

All you need to play the game is the Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rulebook. The Advanced Player’s Guide will give you some more options. The GM may also want The Gamemastery Guide, and The Pathfinder Bestiary.

Final Thoughts

• This is definitely an improvement over Pathfinder’s original edition.
• I like that it includes plenty of rules for activities other than combat, such as exploration and down time.
• You get everything you need in the 640-page Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rulebook, eliminating the need for a GM Guide, however I haven’t read the Pathfinder Second Edition Gamemastery Guide. I am sure it is also excellent.
• Paizo is great company and their books are top quality.
• Now here is why I still don’t think I will be playing this game:
  • Too much crunch: In my opinion, it is too complicated, too many rules, too much crunch. Of course, this is only because I prefer a game with less crunch. Less crunch makes a game easier to learn, easier to teach new players, and faster to play. You spend less time at the table looking up rules, spells, conditions, feats and features. Too little crunch and you don’t have enough rules to cover the most common situations. I feel 5E hits a happy medium (although 5E could be improved.)

• • As an example: It took me quite a while to find and understand the PF2 Death and Dying rules. In 5E, whether or not you like the rules regarding death saving throws, everything you need to know is all on the same page and relatively straight forward. In PF2, I was trying to find what happens when you reach 0 HP. First I looked in the “Encounters” section, it wasn’t there. I found “Death and Dying” in the index, so I went to pages 459–461. There I found under “Knocked Out and Dying” what happens when you reach 0 HP. A quick summery is: you’re knocked out, your initiative position changes, and you gain the Dying 1 Condition. It goes on to explain how you might get the Dying 2, or higher, Condition depending on if you have the Wounded Condition. I had no idea at that point what the Dying 1 Condition, Dying 2 Condition, or the Wounded Conditions were. Then it tells you about what happens when you take damage while you have the dying condition. So before I read about “Recovery Checks”, I had to read the section on the “Dying” condition and the “Unconscious” condition, and the “Wounded” condition. Maybe that I am just a little slow, but it took me a few Google searches to read some discussions regarding it all before I was comfortable enough with how it all worked to I write that part of my review. I did read a couple of places that you die if you have the Wounded 4 Condition when you drop to 0 HP, but that isn’t how I read it. Please let me know if I got anything wrong. It was almost like the old joke, “You have to read everything before you read anything.”
  • Another problem with having so many rules: On your turn in combat, you can take 3 actions. There are a lot of actions to choose from (slowing combat) but it leaves the players with the feeling that you can only do something if it is on the list. The essence of role playing games should be that your character can attempt to do anything he can think of, and the rules are there to help the DM determine whether or not you succeed.